Jordan Rayboy
on Sep. 13, 2011
We’ve got a saying in Texas — “It ain’t braggin’ if it’s true.” We are KILLING it this year, on pace for 300% growth year over year, and over 50% more than my career high from 2005. We have more business than we can possibly handle, and I just recently hired another two project people to meet the demand.
So I asked myself recently — what’s different? What am I doing this year that’s kicking it into high gear and taking my search practice to the NEXT LEVEL?
Bob Marshall
on Sep. 9, 2011
A student of mine called the other day. He had spent all week conducting a concentrated marketing campaign and had written a few new Job Orders. He was now using my Job Order Matrix system (for more information about this technique see, TFL, July 2006, “The Job Order Matrix (with Kevin Franks),” pp. 1-4.), to qualify his JOs, but it was taking him what he thought was an inordinate amount of time. He asked if there was a shortcut in the JO qualification process. I asked if he had ever heard of the Qualifier Job Order approach and he had not. And so we began to talk about this Big Biller technique.
Brett Blair
on Apr. 11, 2011
With just four years’ experience in this great business, I’ve made my share of mistakes. Some I continue to make, even though I know better. I’ve learned, over and over, that it is not wise to get involved in low-quality search assignments. We all know what they look like, and I’m getting a little better at sniffing them out. My short list of signs or symptoms of a low-quality search are:
image source: Claus Rebler
The list can go on and on. I’ve done work with each of the above, and it was painful!
Ongoing marketing, with a clear value proposition, is the only way to improve the odds of winning great search assignments. I’m a believer in open communication, and think it is a good idea to share your business goals and aspirations with many people, including your friends. However, this can be a double-edged sword.
Jeff Allen
on May 24, 2010
“Getting a job order.”
“Obtaining a search assignment.”
The very words imply that you need to talk someone into something. Or even worse — out of something. The object is writing up the almighty JO. Some offices even have quotas for them. Contests. Awards.
But are they hot? Are they even real?
Let’s look at a few other reasons you might have received one:
There are hidden agendas you’ll never write on your JO. You, everyone else in the office, and even your networkers will waste an incalculable number of hours only to discover that the hot new JO is cold and old. But you were told — you were just too bold and sold to listen.
“Hiring authorities” — it sounds so official. Maybe one of our trade associations should make up badges so we could deputize them, swearing them in formally at meetings.
In fact, maybe we should certify them like we certify recruiters.
Neil Lebovits
on Sep. 21, 2009
Dear Neil: My greatest challenge is in securing job orders. Specifically, how can I go about getting more returned calls from my clients when I leave voicemail?
Here is one sure-fire tip to massively increase your call backs. It is quite simple: take advantage of the fact that you are a recruiter!
Your product is a person (as is, of course, your prospect). ALWAYS (especially with C-level or higher targets) start your call as a recruiting call. Yes, even if you are calling HR and don’t place HR people. You can always market them if they are good. This is great when trying to reach the line. You can easily leave a very cryptic/mysterious message.
For example:
“Hi, Neil. I was referred to you and thought we ought to talk. I don’t want to leave a message about the subject, please call me back at 555-123-4567.”
Of course, if you weren’t actually referred to them, then skip that part. You can still just let them know that you have something to discuss that you’d rather not leave on voicemail. There is nothing wrong with this and who will NOT want to see what this is all about?
I have been told by some that this is a ruse. It is not! Everything you say is true. You are going to recruit them (or try to, which is something you should always be doing anyway).
When they call back, you will explain who you are and why you wanted to be very professional and cautious with them during the message. Recruit them. Make it about them. Then, after the initial conversation, turn it into a marketing call or call back later. The gate will be open! I am surprised how few people do this all of the time!
Try it, you’ll like it!
Rachel Schneider
on Jul. 21, 2009
Recently, I had a conversation with a staffing agency president who was interested in buying some guru or others insight for business development.
He said, “But Rachel, I don’t want any insight, I want a quick and dirty tool that will help me find and get job orders.â€
In another case, the managing director of a contingent staffing agency said, “I don’t have enough job orders, I need MORE, a lot more so we can pick and choose what we work on.â€
How fast do you think they will be out of business?
Let me make this crystal-clear to you as a person who has led million-dollar lead generation efforts for technology projects/staffing firms and was responsible for search agency business development: There is NO quick and dirty tool to get business and the days of picking & choosing what to work on are OVER.
The staffing agencies that are doing well today are the ones that:
From the client perspective, no one has time to manage multiple agencies and spend time ramping-up or working with firms that have no ability to fulfill what they need. Just as agencies don’t have time to spend talking with or dealing with unqualified candidates, firms have no desire to deal with unqualified firms. Firms that repeatedly fail to deliver or do poorly will be dropped permanently from the roster and, in this environment, a reputation for failing to deliver is not one that you want to earn.
Many “experts†will emerge who will advise you on what to do or how to get job orders, if they haven’t made a business development call or closed business — pass them by. Be sure to ask, when your material, advice, or insight was applied — how much new business did your clients secure, in what timeframe? The best way to spend your limited funds on business development is to find a resource who will work with you to develop the message, write your website copy, develop emails, and make those hundreds of calls to establish the relationship.
There are incremental resources like me or actual agencies that do not require “big bucks†to help you. Spend your money where you get a return; if done properly, the money you spend will repay itself in new job orders.
Dan Fisher
on Apr. 3, 2009
In the IT staffing world, project management is often a popular topic of discussion. Some of the key principles of effective project management include defining the customer requirements, project deliverables, timelines and milestones, and creating a communication plan.
To use the waterfall methodology, we don’t proceed to the next step or phase of the project until the current one is complete. These same principles apply to closing a job order or managing the sales cycle.
Let me explain.
elaine.rigoli
on Jul. 14, 2008
Interesting article from our friends on IT niche job board Dice.com about the ever-confusing task of matching job descriptions to candidates. Specifically, the article highlights how consolidation means a lot of job requisitions are going unfulfilled.
Because more and more companies are demanding business-savvy tech help, “IT workers and recruiters say many job requisitions look more like a committee’s wish list than an actionable job description.”
Crazy? Unrealistic? Or the wave of the future? Jump into the article here and decide for yourself.
Jeff Allen
on Jul. 1, 2004
“Getting a job order.” “Obtaining a search assignment.” The very words imply that you need to talk someone into something. Or even worse — out of something. The object is writing up the almighty JO. Some offices even have quotas for them. Contests. Awards.
But are they “hot?” Are they even “real?” Let’s look at a few other reasons you might have “been given,” “obtained” or “received” one:
1. The hiring authority wants to get you off the phone.
2. The hiring authority is “window shopping” with the idea of hiring if Superstar, M.B.A. is recruited.
3. The hiring authority is “always looking for the best people”.
4. The hiring authority wants to conduct a little industrial espionage on the competition.
5. The hiring authority is looking to network with colleagues without leaving their office (on company time).
6. The hiring authority thinks a contract won’t be awarded, but wants to have qualified candidates available if it is.
7. The hiring authority is just trying to impress you with their power.
8. The hiring authority is looking for a job and wants to draw you into presenting them.
Higher priorities of hiring authorities — certainly higher than hiring. Hidden agendas you’ll never write on your JO. Too bad you’ll write it at all. Because you, everyone else in the office, and even your networkers will waste an incalculable number of hours only to discover that the hot new JO is cold and old. But you were told — you were just too bold, and sold, to listen.
“Hiring authorities!” It sounds so official. Maybe one of our trade associations should make up badges so we could deputize them, swearing them in formally at meetings. In fact, maybe we should certify them like we certify consultants. They’d have to adhere to a code of ethics and pass a test like this:
To be answered with a YES or NO answer:
1. Are you ready to hire or are you just checking the labor market, appeasing management, or trying to cover yourself if someone quits?
2. Are you consistent in your fee policy?
3. Do you tell consultants they have an “exclusive” when others have been given the same search?
4. Do you communicate promptly with consultants once you place job orders?
5. Do you communicate candidly with consultants once you place job orders?
6. Do you change the specifications arbitrarily after placing job orders?
7. Do you have a reliable procedure to ascertain whether a candidate was referred through more than one source?
8. Do you have an objective, disclosed policy of honoring referrals based upon time, presentation or interview arrangement?
9. Do you treat recruits with the courtesy they deserve?
10. Do you attempt to avoid or reduce an agreed fee after you’ve hired the candidate?
Anyone who could answer, “Yes” to those questions deserves a badge!
We remember sitting in a brainstorming session at an association meeting where someone suggested we require employers to sign a code of ethics before working with them. Everybody laughed.
No — there won’t be any tests to find out if they’ll hire, or any rules to make them do so. You’ll just have to know how to spot hiring authorities with higher priorities – preferably no later than after the first phone call.
Here are a half-dozen ways:
1. CHECK THEIR REPUTATION
Of course, you don’t ask them. In fact, you don’t even have to call them in the first place if their name (or their employer’s) has an unsavory aroma. Ask around.
A favorable reputation is the result of dealing with recruiters openly and honestly over an extended period of time. Almost everything in the placement process is fraught with opportunities for misunderstanding (non-exclusive assignments; contingency fees; “temp-to-perm” conversion fees; raiding client companies; violating confidences about impending hirings, firings, and cutbacks, etc.) It takes an open-minded, PR-oriented person to keep our industry happy.
It also takes an unusually secure one to walk that line, since well over half the time the requisitions are impossible to fill or the company isn’t serious. Sometimes they know it, sometimes they don’t. Faced with that decision between their job and yours, most hiring authorities don’t even see a conflict of interest.
Consider the source. Most people don’t. Is it a competitor or someone who can’t be trusted? Is the bad rap based on hearsay or direct experience? Is it based on one incident or a course of dealings? Does it present a challenge to you to change the hiring authority’s mind about our industry?
Our best clients through the years have been the ones who have been burned by other lawyers. They know the difference, and (unfortunately) their negativism is sometimes justified. The chances are someone who’s been victimized by a recruiter will have a bad reputation — it usually can be traced to a fee dispute or anger over an attempted raid.
So look for a good reputation, but if you proceed with caution don’t automatically avoid a hiring authority with a bad one. They’re easy to get when you’re responsible for hiring humans through humans.
Now, let’s see the personality types you can spot when you don’t know a thing about them:
2. THE CHATTERER
Hiring honchos who talk incessantly usually don’t act instantly. Even worse, they’re extremely poor listeners — it’s physically impossible to talk and listen at the same time.
Chatterers are avoided, even by subordinates who want to get their job done. Other supervisors tune them out, stop listening to them, and resent expending the incredible amount of time and energy necessary to pay attention to them.
Another difficulty with chatterers is that they invariably gossip. If you reduce your fee, recruit from a competitor, or send out a candidate they don’t like, you’ll be on their lively lips every time another recruiter calls, candidate sits or peer group meets.
The sign is obvious — they just won’t zip the lip.
3. THE PROCRASTINATOR
Procrastinators surface in the first conversation. And the second, third and fourth. Consider these unspoken excuses that make “hot” JO’s frigid:
a. It’s easier for me to hire when the work is backed up. I’ll wait until management panics.
b. I don’t have time for the formality of interviewing. I’ll let the headhunters prescreen and then if there’s someone I really like I’ll have them send a resume.
c. What if I make the wrong decision?
d. I really don’t want to spend the time training someone now, but screening will keep management off my back.
e. The last thing I need is some outsider telling my people how great things were somewhere else.
f. I’ll wait to fill the job until after (insert one or more):
(i) my vacation.
(ii) the holiday.
(iii) my pension plan vests.
(iv) my review.
(v) my boss returns.
Heard enough? You asked for it. Sometimes literally. Just listen to your recruiters. They pry open JO’s withic lines like:
a. “It costs nothing for you to look.”
b. “Well, would you pay a fee if the right person came along?”
c. “We’ve just completed a retained search and have some excellent candidates who are interested in talking to you.”
And the Beethoven’s 5th of all time:
d. “Our fees are ne-go-ti-a-ble.”
So procrastinators are given every opportunity to hide behind the bureaucratic, administrative delays inherent in every organization.
4. THE WEAKLING
Most recruiters take the inflated term “hiring authority” literally. This causes them to forget completely that they’re literally “consultants.”
Middle-management supervisors are undoubtedly among the most emotionally fragile people in the working world. Their “authority” is constantly questioned from above, below and even from lateral supervisors. Statistically, the chances of making a “wrong” decision are much higher than that of making a “right” one. And there is a greater likelihood of someone magnifying a wrong decision to:
a. Shift the blame for a mistake.
b. Justify not paying the supervisor more.
c. Fire the supervisor.
Recruiters aren’t restrained like these folks. Truly they are “consultants,” with the objectivity that comes from freedom. From being able to deal with whomever they like. There are virtually unlimited options available.
Weaklings only “win” when you let them — you can both win if you focus on consulting not selling. Bryce Webster told how in The Power of Consultative Selling:
The client will want to feel that he has chosen reliably, so that he will not feel out on a limb. He does not want to fail, so his sense of security (“I could lose my job if I blow this one!”) may be threatened.
Keep these questions in mind to direct the flow of your presentation:
a. Have I explained the common ground that I have with the hiring authority?
b. How is the hiring authority reacting to me (“negatively and skeptically or positively and trusting”)?
c. What things have I said that interested the hiring authority most (recruiting approach, availability of candidates, contingency fee, guarantee, etc.)?
d. What objections has the hiring authority raised repeatedly? Have I ignored, fought or adequately responded to them?
e. Am I respected as an objective “consultant” or merely tolerated as a faceless “headhunter.”
The last item is the result of the first four, and without it you might as well be calling someone else. I discussed the importance of the “consultant” image in Finding the Right Job at Midlife:
While the call can start differently and take controlling the dialogue. It should be a dialogue, not two monologues.
You may have to leave a few messages before you swing into action. If the supervisor calls back, always be courteous but too busy to talk. Ask if you can return the call in a “few minutes.” This makes you appear in demand. It then enables you to organize your thoughts, review your notes . . . and relax. Then by initiating the call, your control position is increased.
In studying the Consultant Phone Call, you’ll note that the emphasis is on helping someone else. We are utilizing one of the most basic success principles ever discovered:
You’ll get what you want, if you give others what they want.
The call also considers the natural insecurity of anyone who depends on another for emotional and financial support. It is a success principle etched in bronze on a plaque in our office:
There’s a big difference between advising and assisting.
Don’t overreact and bully weaklings — work with them, not against them. Help make them look good and you’ll make placements.
A recruiter can get so hung up in “overcoming objections” that they buy into the game. It’s a no-win situation — procrastination in “giving” a job order or “confirming” a fee signals someone who can’t “close”.
As Paul Hawkinson noted in the industry guidebook Closing on Objections:
Many consultants spend endless hours with people who can’t say yes. In our business this is an ever present problem… Never try to get an iron-clad commitment from a reluctant gnome… it can’t be done. And the more you try, the worse you injure yourself.
Hang up the joborderphone. Don’t procrastinate.
5. THE RULEMAKER
Rulemakers invariably have little “industrial relations,” “human resources” or “administration” empires. They surround themselves with a set of rules so they can enforce them.
Rulemakers tend to be tough, rigid people. Although they may pass most of the 10 questions in our hiring authority test, you won’t place with them.
It’s not that they intentionally sabotage you, but rule makers have trouble getting things done — like ramrodding a job offer through the hiring cycle. Strict adherence to procedure drives movers and shakers crazy. Since they can’t openly admit rules are meant to be broken, they just make the rule maker’s life difficult. Sandbagging a pending hire is one way.
In Office Relations Mary DeVries observed:
Other departments and their personnel are. . . perceived as adversaries at times; competitors for a larger share of the company’s budget, for certain promotions, and for other desirable benefits.
. . . Although you may be competing with your peers, you must balance this position with an open, friendly and cooperative attitude.
Avoid potential conflicts by being a good listener and trying to understand the position of others.
Rigorously religious rule makers just don’t have the time or flexibility to finesse interpersonal relationships the way you’ll need. If they lay a long list of laws on you, expect a heartbreak. They just don’t relate to the “rules” of recruiting. The law of Headhunter’s Jungle isn’t like their rules at all.
6. THE INCOMPETENT
Too bad they don’t answer the phone “Peter Principle speaking.” They’ve reached their level of incompetence and test your level of intolerance. A few of their traits are:
a. They’re indecisive, so readily accept your suggestions on job specs and source companies (whether you’re right or wrong).
b. They’re disorganized, so forget appointments, get distracted during interviews and lose hiring paperwork (resumes, emails, applications and even fee schedules).
c. They’re shortsighted, so accept referrals from anyone who calls.
d. They’re inconsistent, so revoke accepted job offers before the start date.
e. They’re unrealistic, so give you a wish list, then blame you for producing recruits who won’t make a lateral move.
f. They’re insecure, so insist on “qualified” candidates but sabotage their placement (calling them “overqualified,” “too senior” or just “unsuitable”).
But what do you do in response to these things? Are you the kind of person Donald Smith was talking about in How to Cure Yourself of Positive Thinking?
The easy way to live with inefficiency, bungling and monumental stupidity is to go along with it and to respond with a cheerful and enthusiastic “Right, Chief!” and establish yourself as a positive thinker, eager and willing to go along with the times.
. . . The person who is working you into a corner with an unreasonable or selfish demand cares not a fig for your feelings and that is exactly what you owe him… It isn’t working, is it? So why do you cling to the belief that it does work, or will work, or could work if only… (and here you can fill in any of a thousand feeble excuses).
You won’t make a placement with any of these folks, They’ll just relentlessly waste your time and infect you with an incurable case of consultant burnout.
These are six ways to know if your hiring authority is (l) hiring and (2) an authority at all. Best wishes for success in using them!
Mike Ramer
on Apr. 1, 2004
Search consultants by nature are risk takers. Whether we are owners, managers, recruiters or researchers, every time we pick up the phone, we take risks. We all know too well that the placement process can break down at any time for any reason. This costs us time, money and heartache.
Webster’s Dictionary defines “risk” as “the degree of probability of loss or injury.” Many know that the Chinese character for “risk” translates to “danger and opportunity.” By managing danger, we can find time-saving, big-earning opportunities.
Question for you:
The majority of veterans would probably answer: “Time.” The majority of those with less than 10 years might answer: “Money.” What do the wise veterans know?
Time is our most precious resource. Money can always be made.
Once gone, time cannot be replaced.
The same thinking should be applied to our business. How many contingency recruiters feel they make no money 98% of the time? And, that it’s in the remaining 2% where the big money is made? What if we can reduce the 98% to 90% — where we save valuable time — which increases the 2% to 10%? Doing the math, 2 to 10 is five times our earning power.
How can we apply risk management methods in our aim to make placements? Much has to do with how we manage our time to produce desired results. We’ve all heard it: Those who are well-organized and plan on a daily basis are proven to consistently outperform those who do not.
If I were to call you and ask you four simple questions, could you answer them cold?
1- How much do you plan to bill this year?
2- What’s your average placement fee?
3- How many placements a month do you need to reach your annual goal?
4- Have you written down your goals?
Think about it. The more time invested in any activity (personal or business), the more skin you have in the game. And the more risk (and potential reward) increases. This is probably the reason why, the older we get, the more risk-adverse we tend to become.
The same thinking of risk must be viewed in the placement process. I have a training program called “The Art & Science of Search: 40 Steps to Placement.” If we’re working on contingency and the process breaks down at the 38th or 39th step, we earn nothing. It’s happened to us all and it hurts (if our clients only knew!)
In my view, the search business is all about risk management: How to identify opportunities at various stages in the process, how to qualify next steps and how to ensure all goes in the direction to secure a placement.
Let’s take a closer look at how we can reduce risk in the three primary stages of the placement process: 1) Client Development 2) Recruiting 3) The “Art of the Deal.”
1) Reducing Risk in Client Development
Since 2000, my firm has become significantly more selective in the search assignments we work. In times when many a good recruiter would have reduced their standards to “work a job order,” my firm has become more discerning. In fact, since the beginning of 2003, we have turned down about 3 of 5 potential assignments because they don’t pass our criteria.
Everyone has different standards for what qualifies as a workable assignment. Some parameters we all know well. In qualifying a client;
Over the past year, my firm’s criteria have become more stringent, including;
Nothing speaks louder from a committed client
than sending dollars upfront.
If you’ve made more than two placements with a client, you’ve earned the right to ask for and receive engagement fees. If presented right, you might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. Try it. This will dramatically save time, boost your billings and reduce your risk.
2) Reducing Risk in Recruiting
Ask many recruiters about how they feel about the internet. Since the advent of the web, is the search business better or worse off? Many might agree, “The Internet is a phenomenal research tool.” Others may disagree, believing it’s more challenging now because the Internet has increased risk: “Candidates and clients are harder to control.”
My firm rarely posts on-line ads. In my view, firms that do, diminish the perception of a search firm’s value. That’s not what we’re paid to do by our clients. As one of my firm’s valued clients says, “Mike, if we wanted to post on-line ads, we’d do it ourselves. We don’t need a search firm to do that.” I agree wholeheartedly.
Let’s quickly analyze a candidate received from an on-line service:
I see big red flags in “Internet resumes.” Unless these candidates are very carefully screened and qualified for activity, there are major risks which can burn valuable time. Let HR spend their time screening these candidates who are more likely to turn down offers because they’re looking at many opportunities at the same time. Although many may have made placements with candidates received from on-line advertising, this will continue to diminish over time. And, so will your “real recruiting” skills.
We all know the advantages of working with recruited candidates:
In my experience, there is no substitute to “real recruiting” in maximizing earning potential. Getting on the phone, researching, calling prospective candidates and networking effectively.
“Real recruiting” requires higher level skills and more time investment.
Over the long run, this is where we save valuable time,
earn significantly more money and reduce risk.
Shrewd clients can eyeball a resume and see on paper whether a candidate was recruited. This is partly what we’re being paid for. It is also a key factor in whether we receive repeat business.
3) Reducing Risk in the “Art of the Deal”
What industry trainers preach and wise veterans know is that there’s one certain path to billing more in less time. And that is reducing risk in the placement process.
The “Art of the Deal” starts at the point when we have arranged an interview for client to meet candidate. It’s our job to drive the process and coach both parties to placement.
As many know well, there are key “leverage points” in the process that, if handled correctly, can significantly increase placement probability. The main ones are:
Those who have seen my training know that I place great emphasis on the beginning of the placement process. From the start, I’m interested in the motivation of both parties. How strong of a need does the client have to fill an open position? How “bad” does a candidate want to make a career move to my client? If I don’t get a sense that these are strong indicators (at least a 7 or 8 out of 10), then I cut my losses and go on to the next. In my experience, this saves valuable time and reduces risk.
What are the signs that you have an interested client or candidate?
Nothing speaks louder than action (i.e. response from people.)
“Action signs” include:
Gauging and managing motivation throughout is critical to achieving placement success. Through the process, if a candidate or client has changed their motivation, then it’s important to have a “heart-to-heart” talk immediately. If you can’t realign motivation and “desire” has shifted because of external factors out of your control, then it’s best to cut your losses and go on to the next. The path to take from this point is to leverage the relationships you’ve built and the time you’ve invested to move toward placement.
If a client cuts the cord on a search you’re actively working, find out the reasons why, ask what hiring needs there will be in the near future and ask for an internal referral to another hiring manager who has staffing needs. You’ve earned the “right of referral.”
On the candidate side, it’s important to ask on an ongoing basis, “Has anything changed since the last time we spoke?” If a candidate does an unexpected about face while in the interview process, find out the reasons why. If for unforeseen circumstances, have a “heart-to-heart” talk, cut your losses and move on.
If motivation is not strong, don’t pull the candidate through the process.
They’ll break your heart every time.
Instead, save valuable time by leveraging the relationship you’ve built and ask for referrals. Who else does the candidate know who may be qualified for the position? What positions are open with his current employer and who is the hiring manager? Again, you’ve earned the “right of referral.” In addition, you’ll earn great respect from your client by conveying the reasons why this candidate is no longer available.
In summary, reducing risk throughout the placement process is paramount to saving time and billing more, especially for those working on contingency. In the beginning, the methods by which clients are developed and candidates are recruited will have a great impact on your ability to control risk. Always strive for exclusivity.
You may think you have a great client, but if they’re working with more than two recruiting firms, beware. You may think you have a top tier candidate, but if he/she has applied to more than two companies and/or is working with more than two recruiting firms, beware. In the Internet age, we must screen rigorously upfront for both candidate and client activity to reduce risk.
How to guarantee exclusivity? On the client side, receive engagement fees. On the candidate side, receive a signed “exclusive candidate agreement” in which your firm has the sole advantage to work with a candidate for a specified period of time.
Like a great American once said, “I have a dream.” My dream is that all recruiting firms receive engagement fees before starting searches. That we don’t discount fees and are paid our true value.
Imagine what would happen in our industry and to our profession, if we collectively started working this way. In my view, it starts with developing great client relationships. If you’d like my firm’s “Great Client Checklist” email me at mramer@ramergroup.com and I’ll send it to you.
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